Entrevista a José Luis Turina / Interview with José Luis Turina

By Eva María Jiménez Rodríguez

Published in Issue No. 1 of the musical research journal AV Notas, from the "Andrés de Vandelvira" Higher Conservatory of Music in Jaén (May 2016)


You have been the Artistic Director of the JONDE since 2001. How would you rate the level of musicians in Spain after participating in numerous orchestral auditions as a jury member? What aspects do you value most when selecting a candidate? And as a member of a jury?

I would rate the level as very high, something unimaginable a couple of decades ago. In the fifteen years I've been leading JONDE, I've had the opportunity to attend many auditions, as is logical, and not just for admission to the orchestra itself. The auditions held annually for the EUYO (European Union Youth Orchestra) are particularly significant because the jury is the same for all European countries participating in the orchestra. Therefore, when they arrive in Spain for the auditions, they have already spent many weeks listening to candidates from other countries and still have more to go before the annual round is completed, after which the orchestra is assembled for its new year's projects.
For this reason, their opinion is especially important, and its positive nature has only grown in recent years. First, this is due to the large number of Spanish candidates applying to take these exams: since 2009, a preselection process has been established in Spain, limiting the number of Spanish applicants to 120, a figure that now surpasses traditionally strong countries like the United Kingdom (110) and the Netherlands (106). Second, once the exams are completed, the high quality level of the selected candidates -about 15 Spaniards on average in recent years- further confirms this positive trend. The same can be said about the auditions for the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra (GMJO), although these do not involve performing before a jury; instead, the performances are recorded on video and evaluated later.
(As I respond to this interview, I've just received the news that the EUYO will be disbanded starting September 1 of this year, once the summer tour concludes, and ironically, in the year marking its 40th anniversary. I'm unaware of the reasons, and we'll have to see if they are budgetary, a result of indifference towards the project, or merely bureaucratic; in any case, it represents a major blow to culture in general and to the educational enrichment opportunities for young European musicians.)
The high number of candidates means that the auditions for JONDE, EUYO, and GMJO must necessarily be very brief. This requires the applicant to maximize their concentration and pay the utmost attention to the few aspects of their abilities that the jury will be able to assess. It's the teacher's responsibility to advise the student based on their abilities. But even within the short time usually available, it's possible to detect very important aspects, not only musical ones: attitude, confidence, quick problem-solving, or unexpected setbacks...
This can be seen in an aspect of the admission tests that we at JONDE highly value: the sight-reading exercise, which allows us to assess qualities beyond the purely technical mastery of the instrument. It often happens that candidates who have given an excellent performance of the required piece and orchestral excerpts struggle to resolve the challenges presented by a medium-difficulty sight-reading exercise, and vice versa. And it's very common -especially in woodwind specialties, where the overall level is usually very high- that sight-reading determines the final position in the instrument pool. It is clear that this is an aspect that is somewhat neglected in conservatories.

Have there been any cases where, after selecting a candidate, they didn't demonstrate in the orchestra everything for which they were chosen, or, on the contrary, are there usually no surprises in this regard?

From a strictly musical standpoint, there are usually no surprises. However, in other aspects, the situation is often quite different. JONDE has an essentially educational purpose, which is why continuous working periods with the musicians are necessary. During these working periods, we discuss many things that are not necessarily musical but are essential for the proper development of the profession. All of them have heard me lament many times that their great talent is not always matched by the human and personal values that today, when competition is very high, are as important as purely technical skills. A classic example is that between a clarinetist (or a horn player, or a violinist... the instrument doesn't matter) who scored an 8.9 in the audition and another who scored an 8.8, I would choose the latter if they consistently show an attentive attitude in rehearsals or know how to respect the night rest of other guests, their fellow musicians, or the orchestra staff in the hotels where we stay. Meanwhile, the former, who might play slightly better, is unable to do so because they have a drive they can't control...
Given the short time available to evaluate, the audition does not allow for detecting these kinds of issues, which emerge during work sessions and the long periods of living together that last throughout the days of a working period. But I believe the message gets through -although sometimes it takes time- and the truly important thing is that when their time with JONDE ends, they are not only better musicians but also better people, professionals in every sense of the word, the kind of individuals any orchestra would be proud to have.

Based on your experience, do you think that in Spain today, students are adequately prepared to face a specific orchestral audition? Do you believe that Spanish musicians are ready to join professional foreign orchestras?

From what I have seen and continue to see over all these years, I think there is still much that can be done to improve this aspect of training, which is increasingly necessary because the lack of job security forces professionals to undergo auditions and tests frequently. As with everything, experience counts, and logically, the situation of a candidate with many years of "flight time" is not the same as that of someone facing an audition for the first time. The differences become much clearer in auditions held to fill positions in a professional orchestra, where alongside very experienced professionals, a large number of newly graduated candidates are also applying, most of them aspiring to secure their first job, which would represent a higher level than the many "gigs" they've likely had to take to earn some income.
Auditions to join a youth orchestra like JONDE are, on a smaller scale, somewhat similar: alongside candidates who have already spent one or two years in the orchestra and want to renew for another year (for which it is mandatory to pass the audition again, sometimes leading to surprises), there is a good number of applicants taking the test for the first time. Some of them are very well prepared, others not so much, and there is always a small number who are neither prepared nor fully aware of what they're doing, but their environment has created the need for them to at least gain the experience, and so they attend without realizing that the most they might achieve is making a fool of themselves... The role of the teacher, as always, is crucial.

What is your opinion on orchestral selection auditions? Are they conducted in a proper, fair, and just manner? Do you think that the best-qualified candidates are usually selected? Would you change anything about these auditions?

That depends largely on the dignity of each orchestra. In the fall of 2014, the Spanish National Orchestra (OCNE) held auditions to fill, among other positions, two Tutti Violin positions. The 213 admitted applicants completed the test in the record time of just one morning, which gives an average of 2-3 minutes each, including the time to switch from one candidate to another, tuning, and the "performance" of the Mozart concerto chosen by the applicant. Ten candidates made it past the first round, and in the second and final round held the next day, none of them secured a position, leaving the two vacancies unfilled.
Naturally, these auditions could be called anything but proper and fair (perhaps equitable, because all candidates were treated equally poorly). In the memory of the 213 applicants, there must remain a terrible impression of the contempt shown by a national orchestra towards an entire group of professionals, at a time of maximum hardship regarding job opportunities related to what has been their passion and vocation for many years. The OCNE knows why they acted that way, and it's on their conscience, but what's certain is that for many young recent graduates, many of them members of JONDE, who participated in those tests, their first professional experience -attempting to join a state institution- could not have been more depressing.
Naturally -and fortunately- it's not always like this, and the most recent auditions held by OCNE just a few weeks ago were conducted with more time and therefore with better conditions for a more objective and fair assessment. But even so, this type of audition doesn't guarantee the quality of the selection, because the candidate who scores highest in a test doesn't always perform best on the stand. Perhaps this is why the practice of the trial period -the "trial" in British orchestras- is becoming more common, allowing time to assess how the selected candidates perform in their work before granting them a permanent position.

As a music critic, do you believe there has been some evolution in the way society perceives classical music over the past few decades? Have you noticed any progress in Spanish music education?

Ignoring the term "music critic," which I have never been, it is undeniable that all the questions above have affirmative answers, though this doesn't mean they are all positive. Of course, the progress in Spanish music education over the past two decades is positive; however, the evolution of society's attitude towards classical music is not -it is, in fact, quite the opposite, reaching lamentable levels. The problem lies not so much in society, which is an abstract and difficult-to-define entity, but often within the music sector itself, which has been embroiled in a battle to lead the "audience control" (to use the abominable television jargon, which tries to make us believe that what is popular is good), a battle that not even the most distinguished programmers are handling well... unless by "handling" we mean simply going along with the flow, of course. Otherwise, it's impossible to explain how the programming at institutions like the National Auditorium of Music, with which I engage daily, has become filled with banalities worthy of the most overplayed hit parade. This is the modern equivalent of those well-packaged, widely sold collections of romantic pieces that create the illusion among those uninterested in classical music that they actually like classical music. What was once an exception at the National Auditorium of Music a few years ago is now the daily bread that feeds the country's main orchestras, many of which are publicly funded and face no risk of disappearing. As such, they shouldn't need to resort to programming so pandering to the "basest instincts" of a majority audience, who supposedly want to attract new audiences by offering concerts filled with the same old repertoire, but spiced up with soundtracks, video game music... with an utter disregard for contemporary "serious" creation. This pandering, in short, has been elevated to the level of excellence (another abominable word, increasingly in vogue).
For example, the programming for the symphony hall of the ANM for this current month of May includes only one premiere, not without a certain "populism": the Concierto Al-Andalus for guitar and orchestra by Cañizares, performed by himself and the ONE under the direction of Josep Pons. The rest is the usual: Brahms, Schubert, Beethoven, Wagner, Falla, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Mozart... The Fundación Excelentia (of course!) fills Friday the 13th with a program of preludes, choruses, and arias from zarzuela, and curiously, 24 hours later, the Orquesta Metropolitana de Madrid does the same, even repeating some of the arias and choruses heard the day before. To say that the most interesting program this month comes from the OCNE with the revival of Carnicer's melodrama Elena e Malvina gives you an idea.
In short, what has taken so long and so much effort to achieve has as its counterpart a cultural environment clearly in decline, understood as a concession to the lure of what is easy and superficial. Not only are the jobs available to graduates extremely scarce, but once obtained, the disillusionment might end more than one solidly founded vocation.

Regarding female presence in the orchestral world, do you believe there is still a lack of women in important positions in classical music today?

It depends on the field. There is indeed a scarce presence of women in the world of conducting or composition, but not in research or even management. And certainly, this isn't the case in the world of performance.
Regarding the latter, I'll provide some figures from the annual statistics of participants in the JONDE's working periods in recent years. In 2011, there were 87 women and 135 men; in 2012, the difference was similar: 75 women and 124 men; and the same occurred in 2013, with 82 women versus 132 men. But in 2014, the numbers tended to balance out, with 84 women and 92 men. As a curious fact, I can say that in the orchestra's next working period, which will take place in just over a month, the violin section (26 in total, 14 firsts and 12 seconds) will consist of 22 women and only 4 men. The brass section always tilts the balance towards men, but this is certainly not the case in the other sections. In any case, although there are still more men, it cannot be said that women have little presence in this field.

We are currently witnessing how many professional orchestras are going through truly critical situations, and some have even disappeared due to economic issues. What do you think is the secret to the sustainability of professional orchestras?

I don't know the answer to that question, and I doubt anyone truly does. A professional orchestra is a very complex entity that involves a significant number of musicians, as well as an adequate artistic and management team. The situation varies greatly depending on whether the orchestra is publicly funded -as most Spanish orchestras are- or privately funded, as is the case with most British orchestras, for example. In the first case, its continuity could be at risk if the current politicians consider that the artistic work being done in their community does not justify the usually significant budget required to support it. But whatever the correct answer may be -if one even exists- I don't believe that the solution for sustainability lies in trivializing their mission, as I previously mentioned. The symphony orchestra is one of the highest and most demanding socio-cultural achievements in recent human history; it is an essential part of the fabric of Culture with a capital "C," and its role, along with its sustainability, cannot be subjected to the prosaic tastes of the majority (who, as Agustín García Calvo would say, are always wrong).

What role do youth orchestras play in the Spanish musical landscape? Is it possible that they are becoming serious competition for fully professional orchestras?

Since the reform in the 1990s established the orchestra as the flagship subject in music education -due to the experience it provides and its role in defining the organic structure of instrumental specialties- youth orchestras, whether local, regional, national, or international, apart from those in conservatories, have two primary objectives. On one hand, they take orchestral practice a step further than what can be achieved in educational institutions, which are often very limited in terms of space, budget, organizational capacity, and specialized faculty, by tackling a repertoire that would not normally be feasible in such centers. On the other hand, they serve as a bridge between the end of formal education and the beginning of a professional career.
The National Youth Orchestra of Spain (JONDE) naturally fulfills both objectives, but as the number of regional and local youth orchestras has increased in our country, these have become the primary place where advanced students in higher education and the final years of intermediate education expand their learning through higher-level orchestral practice. Since most members of JONDE have also participated in these orchestras, we strive to give them the opportunity to work with national and international teachers, as well as to collaborate with high-level conductors and soloists, performing in major auditoriums and theaters and in prestigious national and international festivals.
Regarding entry into the professional world, the mere fact of having been part of JONDE generally guarantees admission to selection auditions for major national orchestras, bypassing the filter of artistic or academic level. Of course, securing a position in one of these orchestras remains a significant challenge; however, at least they are granted the opportunity to audition, armed with excellent orchestral experience.
Overall, the most important role of a youth orchestra is to instill in its members the idea that music should always be approached with the same passion, love, and dedication they experience at this stage of their training. If this message resonates with the musicians, they will have received a good dose of the best vaccine against the monotony of professional life, which is the greatest risk in such a demanding profession as this one.
Given all of this, it should be easy to conclude that considering youth orchestras as serious competition for professional ones is a complete misunderstanding of their purpose.

The specialization in Production and Management of Music and Performing Arts within higher artistic education in Spain was introduced recently (in 2010), and it remains a relatively unknown field. Given your experience as a technical advisor in the LOGSE reform in music, dance, and drama, what is your opinion on the inclusion of this new specialization in the academic offerings of conservatories?

I'm pleased with this question, which indirectly relates to my work over many years (from 1992 to 2001) as a technical advisor in the reform of music education under the LOGSE framework, as it allows me to reflect on the significance of that regulation in light of the achievements it enabled. The LOGSE has been heavily criticized by all educational sectors, leading to numerous subsequent Education Laws aimed at correcting many of the issues caused by its implementation. However, little recognition is given to the fact that these issues were mostly centered on general education, particularly in primary and secondary education, and especially in core subjects like math or language. Subsequent reforms have attempted to address poor results by increasing instructional time for these subjects, often at the expense of others that are equally important, such as music. There is a stark difference between the attention music received under LOGSE -where it was mandatory for a significant part of these studies- and the attention it receives today, as seen in more recent curricula. Yet, I have yet to read positive comments about what LOGSE meant for Music, Dance, and Drama education, focusing solely on the performing arts. In music specifically, the qualitative and quantitative leap from the 1966 plan -not to mention the 1942 one- is staggering. In just a few years, Spanish society emerged from the dark ages of music education and aligned itself with the rest of Europe, if not ahead in many respects. The response in terms of both quantity and quality from recent cohorts of higher education students attempting to join JONDE is, I believe, sufficiently telling, and I stand by those figures.
On several occasions, I have referred to the fortune it has been for me to move directly from working on advising for the new music education regulations to serving as Artistic Director of JONDE, as it has allowed me to see the results firsthand. In that sense, JONDE serves as a privileged observatory to measure the current state of education in all the higher conservatories in Spain, from which its members come. This position enables us to continuously monitor the performance of different institutions and, above all, the high levels of quality -and quantity, as mentioned earlier- that have resulted from a form and substance of education planning rooted in the conviction that the new models, well-tested in neighboring countries, were clearly the best.
To finally answer the question, the inclusion of the Production and Management of Music and Performing Arts specialization in the latest Education Law within higher education is a direct consequence of greater sensitivity to the current needs of the sector. This was already evident in the existence of several postgraduate or master's programs in Cultural Management offered by various Spanish universities. The creation of an undergraduate specialization further demonstrates that the current state of culture -or cultural industries, if you will- requires measures that align with its development. The fact that this specialization is taught in higher conservatories, rather than in universities, which previously seemed to have a monopoly on it, represents, in my view, recognition of the versatility that such institutions must possess, which must go beyond instrumental specializations, composition, or orchestral conducting.
Moreover, both the specific competencies and professional profile, as well as the minimum content established in Royal Decree 631/2010 for this new specialization, seem entirely appropriate to me. Although theory often lags behind practice, it is welcome if it arrives, and arrives on time.

Recently, some professional orchestras in Spain (for example, the Córdoba Orchestra and the Orquestra Simfònica de Barcelona i Nacional de Catalunya [OBC]) have incorporated the position of a managing director within their staff. What is your opinion on the incorporation of this professional profile in Spanish orchestras? What benefits do you think a manager brings to orchestral teams?

A symphony orchestra requires a dual leadership structure to manage the great complexity of its operations. We must remember that the artistic goal, which is essential, needs to be materialized through the collective work of the group, and this involves managing human and financial resources that are not always easy to administer. The managing director is, so to speak, the "executive arm" that must be in perfect harmony and perpetual collaboration with the "creative arm" provided by the artistic director (who, in many cases, is also the principal conductor, as is the case with the OBC and the Córdoba Orchestra, as well as most Spanish orchestras. This is not the case with JONDE, where my role as director is purely artistic, with a different musical director appointed for each occasion).
The role of the managing director is increasingly common in Spanish orchestras, following the example of major foreign orchestras that have many years of historical advantage in this area (let us not forget that the significant rise of the Spanish symphonic world began just over 30 years ago). Typically, selecting the right person for this position involves assessing a range of skills supported by extensive experience: budget preparation and annual accounts, management of internal and external resources, planning, organization, execution, budget and personnel management, legal knowledge of fiscal matters and the application of various labor agreements, and -of course- communication skills, negotiation, prioritization, decision-making, and conflict resolution.
As you can see, having a person capable of all this is essential for the smooth running of any enterprise, and crucial for one as significant as a symphony orchestra. That is why the inclusion of this specialty in higher music education should be wholeheartedly applauded.